Few suggestions to make this better

[thegreck]

@bryphi77 I had downvoted your original post because I hate when people who have never even stepped on a Onewheel join the forums just so they can tell all of the hardcore OW owners that they could've done a better job with the design.

But I upvoted it after seeing that mod. Nice work. Maybe Future Motion will hire you.

[Franky]

Your design looks nice but it seems like the sleeker design comes at the expense of less space for components and batteries. Range is already the most requested area of improvement which means they need to increase the amount of space for batteries, not decrease. Im wondering if they could design a hub that has batteries around the inside leaving less space within the tire which may not all be needed.

Another consideration that is way different than a skateboard is that you don't/can't move your feet around to avoid coming off the pressure sensor. For new riders or sometimes just in general this leads to foot fatigue on longer rides. I'm not sure if the concave deck would help or or make this worse. Snowboarding your feet are strapped in and are flat. I'd think if concave would be more comfortable, they would be designing boots with built in concave.

The only other concern is toughness and water resistance. The current board is built like a tank which is good because it stands up to tons of abuse without bending or breaking. And new design needs to be just as tough and water resistant.

[thegreck]

Would be cool if Kyle jumped in and gave his 2 cents.

[bryphi77]

@Franky If I owned one of these I could have done a much more thorough design. I dont know any of the current specs so its hard to make a truly compatible design. This is really nice product as it is. I am definitely going to get one once its been in production a bit longer.

[rainynite]

@bryphi77 said:

@Franky If I owned one of these I could have done a much more thorough design. I dont know any of the current specs so its hard to make a truly compatible design. This is really nice product as it is. I am definitely going to get one once its been in production a bit longer.

If you owned one of these you'd be too busy out riding to spend time coming up with a new design. I could care less if this thing looked like a stack of bricks... the feel while riding this thing is incredible.

[bryphi77]

I ride my pedal bike everyday now... and still managed to come up with this design ;)
The only reason I even bothered is because IMO this type of vehicle is the most natural way for a human to get around on a wheel. It is the best design I have seen so far. There is always room for improvements though.

I do agree that the feel of the ride is the most important, thats why I made the suggestions I did. I dont really care what it looks like as long as it is tailored to give the most fluid and natural ride possible. That should be the most important thing IMO. Also, durability and longevity of components.

I would get one now, but I notice with kickstarter type products its better to wait for 2nd or 3rd version of the product.

[Franky]

@rainynite funny you say that because after waiting so long to get my board, I looked at it for 10 seconds before riding and after that I was hooked on the ride and barely ever examined the board itself to the point of neglect. I think this is because when you are riding without pushing the limits, the board just disappears and you are just floating by leaning in the direction you want to go. While this concept has been floating around the recesses of YouTube for a while, Kyle and the fm team innovated greatly on both the hardware and software but most importantly NAILED the ride down in the most intuitive way possible while factoring in safety measures and torque limitations via pushback. I have my own wish list for v2, but design would come last after range, speed, and weight.....however a sleeker design might stop the constant questioners asking if we invented and made our boards.

[Franky]

@bryphi77 yeah you can wait but you are missing out on what is a good product and an experience that will not be the same with v2/3.

Imagine driving an early gas powered car when the rest of the world is still using horses and buggies. That's what riding onewheel is right now....for those who are comfortable riding such a device.

[bryphi77]

Oh, I get it, believe me! IMO this is how humans will traveling in the future. Personally, I dont care so much about the safety aspect of it. If I was to build one for personal use it would probably have some kind of foot straps because it would deal well with getting up curbs. With that big tire and foot straps you could use it like a pogo stick... Could easily get up a curb/obstacle at least.

I am tempted to get one, but its not cheap. If I am going to spend that much I would rather wait for more refined product. Not that there is anything wrong with this one, but just the fact that so many people are using it and giving feed back will cause future versions to be better. This is the first version that is for sale now, right?

This my final list of things that IMO could help rideablity.

1. Concave deck (foot grip, cornering)
2. Deck that is almost as wide as a big foot (foot grip, cornering, Its not needed on skateboard, but more important here because you have the ability to tip all the way over, wider deck will give more leverage)
3. Bushings at axle/frame ( cornering, stability, and component life. As it is now the rider is cushioned by the tire, but the frame and the axle do not have any cushion from each other. If you do things with bushings the failure point is no longer the axle or the frame, but is now a $2 bushing. It will take a lot of stress off of all the metal to metal components to have that little bit of give in the system)
4. Feet straps (if you want to get extreme with it.)
5. Have 2 versions (There is definitely the ability to make something here that is more than most people would be willing to risk riding, have one version for normal people who only want to get from point a to point b, and another version for people like me who want it to be the wheeled equivalent of going snowboarding down a triple diamond mountain.

[fabuz]

STOP TRYING(WANTING?) TO CHANGE THINGS WICH WORK WELL.... ~JUST RIDE IT~ ....

[chabis]

although i agree with most guys here in the forum (you should definitely get a board man, it's worth every penny) i do think, that a slightly concave deck (now i really understood what you meant) could add to turns (been doing all kinds of board sports). however, i can see that there would be a problem regarding the sensors which is why i would second @njcustom to get an adjustable/angled sensor if not a sensor that covers the whole plate instead.
on another note: nice job with the animation.. get a board and examine the components, then do another redesign if you feel like. i do think that every criticism is worth it's share. although i must admit that it's hard to give in to a person that never rode a board (no offense).

[Franky]

@bryphi77, this version is definitely not for everyone to get from point A to B. I'm sure the reason they called the company Future Motion and not Onewheel is because they intend on making different forms of rideables some of which will probably be more practical for transporting the masses but not nearly as fun. Onewheel is a boardsport and while most capable people could learn to ride, it is probably too extreme for a lot of people just like snowboarding.

Personally I find the topic of improvements and innovation interesting though your list is very pie in the ski since you have not ridden. There are dynamics you clearly have not experienced both in terms of board handling but also safety. That said, I agree that this version is probably not for you. This version is more about having fun and enjoying the ride than anything else. That combined with price does limit the people who can afford and who would utilize it.

[bryphi77]

@Franky
I think something very similar to this could be use by almost everyone to get from a to b. I just think there are a few more advancements that need to be made to make is easy enough. It is the most natural way to get around on a wheel imo.

Has a next version been announced yet? What has been talked about being updated?

I know I havent road one so my opinion is not very valid, but I have snowboarded, skateboarded, and surfed my whole life so I can kinda imagine the feel it would give.

I need to find one to test ride.

Here are two high res renders of the version I did...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8GqBop8vVFya1kyRElpbVlQZU0/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8GqBop8vVFydG5iU3hEbVh6bGc/view?usp=sharing

I will come back and join you guys again after I get one!

[germx]

@bryphi77 The links don't work for me, maybe it's just my work computer.
Anyway, The next version hasn't been announced yet. The only thing I've seen is pure speculations from people.
It's not very likely to be just around the corner.

It's a bit funny how people still wish for a second and improved version, but still jump to defend every aspect of the first version, if the suggestions are from someone else.
Even though I can understand it when it comes from someone who hasn't ridden the board. Still, ideas and suggestions are never a bad thing. So no fighting! :)

[bryphi77]

Can someone give me some specifics on exactly how the foot sensors work? Or even a link to the company that makes them? Are they under the wood deck or inside it? Can they detect weight or just pressure? How exactly are the foot censors controlling the motor? Ideally it would be the difference in weight between the front and back foot that controlled the acceleration, but I get the impression that is not how it is set up?

[simenlier]

@bryphi77 They do detect weight, thats all I know haha

[thegreck]

@bryphi77 They are under the grip tape, on top of the wood deck and they detect pressure. They are only on one side of the board, but there are two of them (one for the toe, one for the heel... both must have pressure on them for the board to activate).

The sensors have nothing to do with controlling speed; that is all calculated by the electronics using complex stabilized inverted pendulum control theory algorithms (an example here: http://web.mit.edu/2.737/www/extra_files/andrew.pdf) based on the info it receives from the gyros (which calculate the tilt of the board, not how much weight is on either end). No idea who makes them.

[bryphi77]

@thegreck OK, so they are just there for safety reasons, and do not at all control acceleration. I was a bit confused because someone earlier in this thread made it sound like they were used for controlling the motor. I didnt think it would be that way, but thats how it sounded, and then I saw a youtube vid of someone replacing it and I still could not tell exactly what it was used for.

So its only function is to activate the board? And the rest is controlled by the gyros?

[thegreck]

@bryphi77 Yes, the pads just let the board know someone is on the board so it doesn't go riding off on its own. And the gyros don't really control anything, they just give the electronics most of the info they need to self-balance the board by speeding up or slowing down the wheel.

The main function of everything is just to keep the wheel directly beneath you, which it does by moving faster in one direction than you can tilt the board in that same direction, which keeps the board level by shifting your weight back due to the increased momentum of the board. As long as you don't outrun the motor, that is.

[carvewell]

All this talk of concave (heal to toe) footpads has got me thinking that as a woodworker I should just make some and see if they add or subtract to the ride. The factory footpads are flat because marine grade plywood is for now readily available, and without any curvilinear features the footpads are easy to manufacture reliably. Who knows though maybe FM all ready tested concave footpads and determined they were not a significant performance enhancement or worse they sucked. Either way we should give it a shot. My guru has a shop bot CNC machine and I'm thinking that starting with thicker plywood and machining out the desired concave is the simplest approach to a testable prototype. Machining into the plywood would expose the laminations and present a likelihood of de-lamination but a veneer could be applied and vacuum glued to the concave to create a more sealed top deck. I'm worried about a few things, the foot sensor (but really I am equally optimistic that it will work), the increased chance of muck and water accumulating underfoot, and the decreased area for walking the board. I know that the whole point of the concave is to funnel the load of your body weight to the apex or bottom dead center of the concave or at least create some heal toe gusseting however I think the flat real estate of the existing footpads lends to a more surfy feel. Any thoughts or suggestions while I work on modeling would be great. Should be as simple as the desired concave.

[bryphi77]

@ashewheeler Concave will make it a better ride, but it would also help to have your full foot make contact with the deck.

[bryphi77]

Here is some suggestions...
With a hub that wide is there any reason that you cant have 2 motors side by side working in tandem?
Also, if your feet were lower than the axle instead of above it... stability would be increased greatly.

I think I am going to buy 2 of the Chinese version that is priced fairly, and see what I can build out of them. I can 3d print most of the modifications. The only thing that I will have to deal with is fabricating the frame.

[germx]

@bryphi77 I'm not sure how big the motor is, and you probably can't find it on the page, but the motor is from http://etmpower.com/
But why would you want 2 motors? I'm not sure if most would want to trade the extra power for the much increased weight.

If your feet were lower than the axle, you'd get very bad ground clearance. And the risk of falling would be greatly increased, and it would be hard to climb hills.
Unless you are thinking of having some kind of very concave slopes on the pads. The problem, compared to a skateboard, that I can see, is to fit the electronics and batteries ins such compartment. While you can to these things in any shape you want, I'd expect it to get a lot more expensive.

But I might just be misunderstanding exactly how you mean.

[carvewell]

I think Kyle and his team really knew and know what they are doing when it comes to the current design of the onewheel. You really have to ride to appreciate the ergonomics of the board. To the tune of what @Franky said about approaching everything from a lean manufacturing modality, Kyle is clearly well educated and practiced in the transitional demands of taking Idea to reality. I think the onewheel is a classic example of KISS keep it simple stupid. The square linear format of the current design is a look at what is minimally needed to achieve the most fascinating boarding experience to date at a one time $1500 buy in! IMO an amazing value. The lack of excess contouring and fairing actually is a value to both the customer and the manufacturer. Also I think a lot of thought was put into the square tips. It may be that after much testing they revealed that square worked best all around for the risk of nosedive. It seems to me that the ratio of deck length to height of wheel center and the coping angle of the end blocks to the riding surface are all very sensitive variables when engineering around the inherent risk of nosedive. Ultimately the experience riding the OW proves that the design is a enormous game changing success! When you ride the OW sometimes it feels like it's not even there and you have to pinch yourself to make sure your not in a dreamworld! A billion thank yoos to Kyle and team for turning my life into a boarding paradise!

[bryphi77]

@ashewheeler I totally get that the product needs to be manufactured at a reasonable price, but the current design is not perfect at all. From a rideabilty standpoint there is a ton of low hanging fruit that can be picked. IMO for $1500 a much better board can be produced and profited from. I am not taking anything at all away from this product... I just hope that this guy does not stop trying to improve it because there are many things that can be better.

Its fine if he doesn't want to improve on it, but I hope he doesn't try to stop others from making a better product.

For $1500 this is what you should be getting IMO.

[bryphi77]

I just want to add... I am only posting these here in hopes that they will be ripped off and produced... Feel free to use any of these designs in future Onewheel.

I do hope that the design is changed, because anyone who thinks that the current design is optimal from a quality of ride standpoint doesn't really know what they are talking about. The ride can be improved greatly with current technology just by changing the design.

Here is a quad view...

[carvewell]

@bryphi77 your modeling is asthetically brilliant! I love the re-imagined monolithic frame and lowered deck concept, however never having ridden OW I think you are operating from a limited perspective. The lowering of the deck would represent a huge loss in clearance unless a larger diameter wheel was used which could be very advantageous in approaching obstacles or bumps similar to the advantage of a 29" mtb wheel over a 26"(keep in mind this advantage is not achieved without compromising cornering). The current design already is running a little short on clearance so would hate to loose any. The solid monolithic frame you have rendered is super rad! However if you had examined the current version you would see how much weight in aluminum your design would add. I'm guessing 5 lbs or more. The current frame rails while being cnc machined from solid aluminum are not solid at all they are largely hollow or channeled to shave weight. The current onewheel is carefully balanced and is hefty but as lightweight as possible without using more expensive materials like titanium or carbon. The current rectangular shape is what I like to call a "landguard" shape. Like the vanguard shapes you see in the surfing world that have been truncated of their tips to eliminate excess the OW only touching the riding surface at the wheel has truncated all but the essential rectangular footprint of the rider. People may want to see a more familiarly shaped board underfoot but it is not needed. Again this minimalism IMO is a value to the customer and the manufacturer. I really doubt that your monolithic frame concept could be manufactured more cheaply than V1. I'm not saying V1 can't be improved or that some of your recommendations shouldn't be explored I just absolutely hands down disagree that the current design is not brilliantly conceived, shaped, and manufactured. After riding 6 months now I even more appreciate the manufacturing and design decisions FM landed on. The more I ride it the more capable it becomes and it continues to exceed my expectations every time I step on the board. In the end I can appreciate your ideas but not your criticism of the OW because you haven't ridden one. If you had experienced the OW underfoot you would not have anything but praise for its uncanny genius!

[carvewell]

@bryphi77 BTW I hope FM looks at your models and applies anything that could be advantageous. I just think that you are not giving FM the credit they have earned with V1. Respect yo!

[bryphi77]

@ashewheeler
I had considered clearance. If you look at the original it is much thicker at the ends and does not have any bend to it. I tried to make the rotational freedom the same as the original design. It may be one or two degrees less here, but even that could fixed by shortening the over all length of the board by a little bit.

I know I haven't ridden one of these, but I do have a good grasp on physics. I tend to think this design was made from a durability and production cost stand point, not from a quality of ride stand point.

I wonder how many designs were tested for ride quality before this was settled on???

And I have said over and over that this is an awesome product, I just hope that the design is moved forward because I feel that is where the ride can be improved most easily.

[carvewell]

@bryphi77 I think Kyle has worked on this project for 5 years or more. There have been at least three iterations.

[bryphi77]

@ashewheeler 3 iterations, but was the design very similar for all of them?

[carvewell]

@bryphi77 FM is hiring dude! I would love to ride your version! Send them a resume and get busy working on V2!

[carvewell]

@bryphi77 yes design similar for all three mostly foot sensor evolution. Keep in mind that capital was probably a limiting factor in early development. Can't wait to see what's next considering that won't be an issue moving forward.

[germx]

@bryphi77 While that looks great, I guess there's a problem with slimmer and angled pads. I'm mostly thinking about the battery and how much less space there is for it. But I do see the positive sides of it.
Apart from that, I'd love to test that out.

[Franky]

@bryphi77, nice job on the design. While there may be some pros to your design, I do agree with @ashewheeler that lowering clearance would have a negative impact on both obstacles but also tight cornering. I've recently practiced doing some very tight circling and the front corner already leans so low that it sometimes scrapes the ground...but the turn is super tight.

[bryphi77]

@Franky Like I said, the angular freedom can be designed to be exactly the same.

Also, what is it that you are suggesting?... That the very first design should not ever be modified, and no other design should be tested for ride quality? Notice that we are not still all driving model t's.

I am not saying that my design is the best option, what i am saying is that the current design can be improved on greatly from a ride quality point of view.

Its actually kinda funny that some people on here dont want other designs to be tested. Especially when every vid I watch of people riding these things I can easily see unnecessary instability in the ride... That could be hugely minimized with a better design.

[Franky]

I'm saying I like your design but I understand a thing or two more than you about clearance while riding a single go cart tire around. Have you ever tried riding over a big branch in your path or rode through an unexpected dip going off road? I have and I'd like more clearance, not less.

None of this isn't to say that a design like yours might be better in other applications. But for the way they demo the board and the way I ride, having the board closer to the ground even just by the wheel means less versatility.

You want to discuss this but you act as if your ideas are the only good ones on a subject you have not personally experienced.

I like your drive for improving the design and I hope they do explore all possible improvements, but I think you would change your design after quality time and experience riding.

A lot of us here have also shared other ideas for improvements in many other posts. Some of the ideas might work while most might not besides all the ideas fm already tried and tossed or improved upon.

That's just my opinion for what it's worth.

[carvewell]

@bryphi77 Dude I think that we are all impressed with your grasp on this subject especially for never having any feet on experience. We are not trying to hinder evolution here. We are just a little protective of our investment in the current platform. Also the ride quality is exceptional already with V1 something you would attest to had you ridden it. Bottom line get your feet on a OW and you will be mesmerized. I'm sure you will have plenty of recommendations but you will be super impressed with V1. We all know this is just hatching and will obviously unfold into something more complex and beautiful. You just need to ride V1 to appreciate what an amazing starting point it is and how close it is to perfection right off the bat. Until you ride it there is no way of explaining or convincing you of how magical it is. Even if V1 isn't a fraction of what it could eventually become it's enough to keep me joyfully occupied the rest of my days. I can't stop laughing as I never in my wildest dreams thought I would be surfing through the Blue Ridge Mountains on onewheel.

[bryphi77]

This is probably even better. It takes care of the clearance issue. It gives a bit more angular freedom than the current design. It also may be the most natural foot position.... being that the legs are spread so far.

[Franky]

What if you invert that up instead of down?
I'm not sure if I'm understanding your theory of why riding closer to the ground is better.

[bryphi77]

@Franky Its not only being closer to the ground that is better, but even more so having your feet bellow the axle that will make a huge difference. With your feet below the axle it takes much of the stress off of the motor trying to keep you upright, and instead your own weight is now doing some of the work. This is one of the biggest things that can help stability.

Honestly, this will be my last post on the issue. Future motion can feel free to rip parts of the design if they want. I really hope they do...

[Franky]

Again I suggest you ride. I would not say stability is an issue for most including beginners. When you ride, you will discover that it's very stable but also what pushback feels like. Pushback is an artificial safety mechanism meant force rider to slow down instead of crashing after riding so fast that the board cannot keep up with the weight leaning forward.

I personally don't understand why a design going down would be more stable than a design going up or the current design being middle of tire. It seems to me like if everything is balanced evenly then it won't matter where you are balancing. Please explain.

[bryphi77]

I guess the best thing that could be done from a business stand point is to continue selling the current version, but also develop a better model that would go for maybe $2500. That way he would have a better product to sell to the people who already own the current version.

[bryphi77]

@Franky
I see the stability issue I am talking about in every vid I have watched. Its not that it cant be ridden, its that there is a better design that will ride better. Unless we are back to the same idea that the model t was the pinnacle of car design and no other designs should be tested

I could just as easily say the same thing to you... You are basing all of your opinion without ever testing another design! So... I may not have ridden this one, but you certainly haven't ridden what I have shown either.

[thegreck]

@bryphi77 said:

I may not have ridden this one, but you certainly haven't ridden what I have shown either.

But you haven't ridden either of them.

[bryphi77]

@thegreck Dont have to ride either to understand the physics of it. Most of the stuff I have mentioned are based on basic physics concepts.

[aris]

@bryphi77 Your enthusiasm is great man, but really, if you understand design, you understand the need for real world experience. Theory is never sufficient. Trial and error. Trial and error. Try it before you so forcefully defend your suggestions.

[bryphi77]

@aris I guess the same thing could be said to Mr Doerksen. Its already been established in this thread that the current design was the only one tested.

I forcefully defend my suggestions because I know for a fact they will produce a better ride. Like I said... the laws of nature cant be twisted.

[No]

@aris, well said. Good ideas are the easiest part. It is literally the FIRST step of development, but @bryphi77 hasn't gotten any further than the "idea stage", yet he speaks with the arrogance of someone who's already had success.

@bryphi77 , in this thread, every time someone opposes you, you take it as an attack on your ideas and accuse them of being afraid of change or being stuck in their ways. I don't think you realise that nobody here opposes your ideas, they oppose your personality, and the manner with which you express your ideas.

[germx]

Now now, calm down people. It's far from easy to test designs for this kind of vehicle. Especially for people not affiliated with FM, who just want to improve the design.
A little less defensiveness from both sides, and a bit more open discussion about pros and cons in design please.
As it stands, discussing it is all we can do, unless someone wants to disassemble their board and remake the frame. Didn't think so.

[germx]

So if we analyze the design, and we suppose it works as intended. What are the pros and cons?
They way I'd see it:

Pros.
Better stability.
Improved control (weren't the pads supposed to be concave? Can't see it).
Slightly reduced weight.
Design (obviously subjective).

Cons.
Reduced clearance close to the wheel (shouldn't be an issue, something that high would be nigh impossible to traverse anyway).
Reduced space for battery compartment (and electronics, no idea if it's an issue or not).
Part hitting ground isn't covered in plastic?
More complex manufacturing process.

Unknown
Carrying options (handle).
Durability.

Did I miss something?

[chabis]

naah you didn't .. well, not as far as i can see.. a friend of mine's a carpenter and i came up with this really easy tweak to get a concave deck. if he's got time i can show you the concept in a few days. let's hope he's not too busy. cause it would be a mod that should be easily installable for everyone

[utsu]

the designs in this thread look knockoff as hell

[carvewell]

@bryphi77 yo bro chachill! Let's all just smoke the peace pipe a little bit and calm down! I gave you a bunch of good feedback on your designs and really genuinely think they are rad! I was just cautioning you on presuming that V1 was deficient before ever trying. Also it sounds like you think Kyle gave up and rested on the laurels of his first design. I think you are really under estimating FM and their process even as they clearly are pioneering this technology and making brilliant business moves to maintain their lead. I ride the crap out of my OW to the point of abuse and have had to send my one wheel back 3 times from N.C. to California for repairs. FM paid for everything each time and corresponded seamlessly with me to reassure me everything would be taken care of. Try sending a Chinese knockoff back for calibration or a tire replacement. My guess is that it would be cheaper to buy a new unit at $500-$700. In China manufacturing is as easy as farting. But try to service something farted out of Shanghai! No disrespect to Chinese working population they are selfless givers in a world of takers! All I'm trying to say is your suggestions are legit and your 3D modeling is fantastic, I really meant it when I said you should apply for a position, you just need to be more respectful of FM and all the people super stoked on V1. A lot of them are still waiting to get their wheels. I think your the one with unrealistic expectations that satisfied customers want to hear how the product they are satisfied with actually sucks IYO because you understand physics better than them. Some diplomatic gestures would have gone a long way towards promoting acceptance of your ideas. In the end I really appreciate your effort and interest in progressing this fantastic technology! Please don't get defensive or feal like we are attacking you. Our loyalty to FM is only a reflection of how much we value our onewheels and the experience riding them!

[fabuz]

I don't want to double cross anyone but when people talk about ameliorate carving and riding experience I always think about @Franky 's link https://mobile.twitter.com/rideonewheel/status/656959713347702784
Good luck for your research for improvement !!!

[bryphi77]

@fabuz What exactly do you think that vid proves? That is not at all the ride experience I am talking about or looking for. Do you know what a power slide is? You should have enough stability and foot traction to stop as if you are snowboarding, and also be able to have controlled slides as you are going fast around corners. At .01 mph like in that vid it is easy to make fast turns... The thing only has one wheel!

If anything that vid shows the exact stability issue I have been talking about... Am I the only one who sees it??? Sure, he made tight turns at .01mph, but it did not look very graceful, IMO.

[thegreck]

@bryphi77 I'd be interesting to see what the ride experience would be like if the feet were below the axle as your plans show. I'm thinking you might have less control over turning, because the weight is too low to be able to affect the wheel as much, but it could be just the opposite.

[bryphi77]

@thegreck What is the acceleration like on these things? It seems like it really takes long to get up to speed, and you really have to lean forward a lot. Maybe two motors could be an option, not for higher top speed, but for better responsiveness.

I have been taking the design further, The version I am working on now has rubber rollers at either end, and a tire shaped more like a rear motor cycle tire.

I do think its best for future motion to have more than one version, because what is best for performance riding will not be the best for getting from a to b. I think a tire shaped like a rear motor cycle would offer the best performance ride, but would be harder for slower inexperienced riders. Thats why on the version I am working on now I have the rubber rollers. That way as you are starting out or stopping you can lean all the way forward or back to get the stability needed with a more rounded tire.

[germx]

@bryphi77

What is the acceleration like on these things? It seems like it really takes long to get up to speed, and you really have to lean forward a lot.

I can't answer the "what" since I haven't measure it. I'm not sure I'd have any good method of doing so either, so I'll probably leave that to someone else. Also I'm not sure how it behaves differently on different versions, and since I'm riding an old version...

But sure, two motors, or a more powerful motor for that matter, would obviously help. With the downside of additional weight, and what comes with that. If you want it or not is subjective, and you are right in that they would need to make different versions for different needs, if they do such changes.
As it's not really a problem, my guess is that most people would prefer the lighter board to the somewhat more responsive one. Unless used for some very specific riding.

What I really just wanted to say, is that you don't really have to lean forward a lot. I don't have a good setup to record this I guess, but maybe one can see it in one of my videos, not sure. They are quite poorly filmed tho.
You CAN lean forward a lot (I'm assuming you mean tilting the nose down, rather than actually leaning forward), but it's not a requirement.
As the board tries to stay level, it's not so much how far you press it down, as how persistently you can hold it below level.

What you are describing now sounds a lot more like the "hoverboard". And no, not the two-wheeled swegway or whatever, but the one-wheeled thing called a hoverboard from @fabuz post –you'd with they come up with some actual names so you don't have to mix these things up–. That one sports a thinner wheel, and more impressive specs on paper. And also better mobility and harder to ride and all that.
Quite a lot more expensive however.

Small question on the side; Why are we talking about power-sliding? I mean you can do that on a onewheel, but the main problem is grip. Unless riding slippery surfaces, you have too much grip to slide.

[thegreck]

@bryphi77 Acceleration is amazing, it only takes a few moments to go from stopped to top speed. And on the subject of leaning, you should always keep your center of gravity directly over the wheel and use your legs to control the angle of the board. Leaning forward is what people new to the board do, and has been the subject of many conversations on this forum as to why people have issues with nosediving. The easiest way to outrun the motor is to suddenly place 200 pounds on one side of the wheel.

This is why we all feel you need to test the current model, so you'll know exactly what and where the shortcomings are and where they only appear to be because you've watched a video of someone who hasn't quite mastered it. It's a board sport, and it takes practice (the best and most fun ones do). Even a seasoned professional skateboarder falls when they're doing tricks... that doesn't mean skateboards need a redesigned, it's just the nature of extreme board sports. And I assure you the changes that skateboards have gone through over the years haven't been made by people who have never ridden one.

So I've checked out your YouTube page, and you're a super smart and talented guy, and we're DEFINITELY not saying that the OneWheel can't be improved. We all have wish lists, believe me. Do a few searches on here and you'll find a ton of posts about improvement suggestions. We're just saying you need to ride it before making up your mind on what to improve and how to improve it. We'd respect your opinion a lot more then. Cheers.

[thegreck]

This post is deleted!

[bryphi77]

@thegreck I do agree that I need to ride one. I get what you are saying about using your legs instead of leaning, but it always looks like you have to really push down to get any response? What I dont understand is that if the acceleration is good why does the nose ever get close to the ground?

"Small question on the side; Why are we talking about power-sliding? I mean you can do that on a onewheel, but the main problem is grip. Unless riding slippery surfaces, you have too much grip to slide."

Change the tire and the board and you could get the perfect balance.

I think people are misunderstanding where I am coming from. This version of the one wheel is a very well designed product. No doubt about that. I am sure there are some flaws, but in all it is very well thought out and designed.

I am coming from the point of view that this type of human wheel interaction is the most natural that has been invented. IMO everything should be looked into and tested to try and get the absolute best ride possible from this type of vehicle... And while this version was a extremely good first version... I am sure there is a ton that can be done to improve it.

[thegreck]

@bryphi77 said: "What I dont understand is that if the acceleration is good why does the nose ever get close to the ground?"

I think you'd have to use a pretty suped-up motor to keep a one-wheeled vehicle from allowing the front end of the board to travel 4 short inches to the ground when a full-grown adult puts his entire weight on it. I mean, it's true that you do have to gradually make your way up to speed, it's not instantaneous, but it still seems really fast (to the rider, and anyone watching them), and if acceleration was any faster, people would be falling off the back of the board.

And I agree with @germx about powersliding. That's fun to do on grass and dirt, for sure, but I want that wheel to stick to the asphalt as much as possible when riding across it moving 16 mph.

[germx]

@bryphi77

"Small question on the side; Why are we talking about power-sliding? I mean you can do that on a onewheel, but the main problem is grip. Unless riding slippery surfaces, you have too much grip to slide."

Change the tire and the board and you could get the perfect balance.

I'm still just not sure what you mean. What does perfect balance have to do with powersliding?

What I dont understand is that if the acceleration is good why does the nose ever get close to the ground?

There's a big difference between good enough and unlimited. To not be able to push it down far, you'd need massive acceleration. "amazing", as thegreck states it might be more of a subjective feeling than an objective observation.

I'm not saying that we don't need more acceleration, but I think there has to be some kind of "softness" to it. To direct and hard acceleration might make it very hard to control. Or very easy, I wouldn't know exactly, since I can't try it.
Some people do have a hard time balancing initially, fighting the self-balancing mechanism by overcompensating, or something. So there has to be a fine tuned control to ride perfectly, but also stabilize the vehicle as a beginner.

[bryphi77]

@thegreck said:

And I agree with @germx about powersliding. That's fun to do on grass and dirt, for sure, but I want that wheel to stick to the asphalt as much as possible when riding across it moving 16 mph.

Have you ever watched sport bike racing? Notice they are not using a wheel like the one wheel. There is no doubt that the current wheel is not the best option when it comes to ride quality. With a motorcycle rear wheel it would be much more like snow boarding or surfing. I feel like the current wheel was to try and make it easier to ride for more people, but I think it is probably the weakest part when it comes to having a truly natural feeling ride.

I think with a wheel like a motorcycle, and a modified frame design you could get a ride that is much MUCH closer to snowboarding or surfing than the current design.

[thegreck]

@bryphi77 said: "Have you ever watched sport bike racing? Notice they are not using a wheel like the one wheel. There is no doubt that the current wheel is not the best option when it comes to ride quality. "

Maybe, but the wheel on a OneWheel is a professional go-kart tire. It's been the subject of many conversations here how genius it was for Kyle to use it. It's already in existence and it's already been tried and tested for years on go-kart tracks all over the world, and the shape allows for the brushless motor to fit comfortably inside it and allows the user to more easily balance when the OneWheel is stopped. Try doing that on a bike.

[germx]

I'm a little lost here, but I own 2 motorcycles. The last thing I want them to do is slide in any way. I'd much rather have that secure grip in a corner than try to ride this as a snowboard. More control, less tire-wear. Less pain.

[bryphi77]

@germx You dont want them to slide uncontrollably, but you also dont want them to have more friction than necessary either. IMO this could be designed to have just the right amount of traction/ to speed ratio so that you could take it into a controlled slide if you wanted to. Same as carving is used to reduce speed in snowboarding, or power sliding is used in longboarding. That is the type of control that is possible IMO. Its all about testing many different designs and seeing what works and feels the most natural.

I do think a wheel change would make all the difference in the way this thing rides. This current wheel is forcing you to stay upright around corners, where if it was more like a motorcycle wheel you would be able to put your body in a much more horizontal position at faster speeds around corners.

[thegreck]

@bryphi77 "Same as carving is used to reduce speed in snowboarding, or power sliding is used in longboarding."

...or regenerative braking is used in OneWheeling. You're comparing non-motorized vehicles to a motorized one. Slowing down on a OneWheel is just as easy as speeding up, no need to slide anywhere and make it more dangerous.

[bryphi77]

For example...
tire traction when you need it most

[bryphi77]

@thegreck said:

...or regenerative braking is used in OneWheeling.

Yeah, but that is not the most natural motion when going around a corner at fast speeds, what I am getting at is there is always going to be a point where speed overpowers traction, and at that point you should be in a stable enough position to have a controlled slide.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20XsaHpRQC8

[bryphi77]

Keep in mind if you switch to a wheel profile like a sport bike it will cause you to let the board go much further out from underneath you during high speed turns... much more like snowboarding or surfing.

The fact that there would be less weight directly over top of the board during high speed turns makes sliding much more likely to happen... but it would still be controllable, and it would allow you to corner at much higher speeds than the current models tire.

I am going to post one more design mod at some point... It is totally different design, but it still may give them an idea or two. I just really want to see other designs tested. I do think this type of transport and sport are here to stay. There is really no reason not to test many different designs to get the most refined ride possible.

[cr4p]

@bryphi77 :
I agree with most of your design suggestions and would really appriciate them as I think you did some great work here.
However, there are two points that I disagree:

1. the wide slick tire is awesome, please do not change that. before I owned a board I also thought that this tire would be the wrong design for the reasons you mentioned. but after I rode it in different conditions (especialy offroad) i have to say that this tire works completly different compared to what i thought - I think it is perfect.
2. whatever you do, do not lower the clearance. instead raise it a lither bit! (a slightly larger diameter of the tire would be aprecciated). again, when it comes to offroad capabilities, you can really need as much clearance as possible.

[chabis]

@bryphi77 regarding the changing of the tire: wouldn't that only make sense if the board were to ride much faster? cause as a casual longboard rider (40 mph) and a snowboard addict (50 mph), those types of boards do get much faster than the onewheel's comfortable 15 mph. and i'm not quite sure if riding more than 20 mph would make sense on ONE wheel. the chance of eating concrete is WAY higher on a onewheel than say a longboard..

[bryphi77]

@chabis said:

not quite sure if riding more than 20 mph would make sense on ONE wheel. the chance of eating concrete is WAY higher on a onewheel than say a longboard..

Even at slower speeds with no chance of sliding a different wheel would make it much closer to snowboarding, and a much more natural ride, and give much more traction around curves.

The speed at which it slides would be determined by the tire and the design. Ideally you only want enough traction for as fast as you are planning on going, and if you go slightly over that speed than you may get some slippage.

But whatever that speed is you should be in a stable enough position that it does not cause an immediate crash.

I will say that what I am envision as an ideal riding machine requires gloves and a helmet to feel safe. So figure 25 mph top speed.

[chabis]

@bryphi77 i agree that a different tire/wheel most probably would make a difference in that it would change the type of ride significantly. though, having ridden that beast for three weeks now i have to tell you: it's pretty d*** close to a ride on a snowboard on powder and it's agility is quite high. but i don't think that's what it should be about - substituting or imitating another boardsport but on concrete, that is. (just my personal opinion on the matter). it's something different, a different sport :) and if someone want's the feeling of snowboarding on pavement, he or she should check out this: http://www.freebord.com. Talking from expereience: that's indeed VERY close to snowboarding on the pavement..

you're right about the position and speed issue though. i also think that there's room for improvement, there always is. not to say that this machine already works AMAZINGLY. and i really like your way of progressive thinking. the designs you came up make sense to me. especially the lowering of the footpads below the centre of the wheel (although i can see that this would require an adaption of the tire since it would result in less clearance which is obviously needed as pointed out by others...) and the concave footpads. i'm currently exploring a realisation of those.. got an idea on how to achieve them (which would result in more grip whilst doing thight curves).. did you already get around to order a board yourself? i'm pretty sure that would give you a more insightful perspective on how this already pretty perfect machine works. and it would explain lots to you that others pointed out, that is basically unexplainable if you've never ridden a onewheel before.. and i can also tell you, as much as i like the onewheel being improved i like this version a lot and will keep riding it :D

[germx]

@chabis That freebord looks amazing. I would never buy it, but it looks really cool. I can't count the amount of times that I fell when snowboarding, but at least that was on snow. And I don't feel like hurting myself that bad ^^.
Time on snowboard: ~20 hours
Falls on snowboard: +100
Time on onewheel: 80-100 hours
Falls on onewheel: 1
Do I want it to be more like snowboarding? No.

[bryphi77]

@germx I agree, this with a proper tire would be a much better option than a free board. This is much more natural... I can see maybe getting a freebaord for novelty purposes to get that carving feeling on the street, but thats not the type of sliding I am talking about in my past few post. I am talking about having it handle like a sport bike with plenty of traction unless you go to fast around a tight corner.

[bryphi77]

@chabis I have seen the freeboard, but I think this is much more natural. Freeboard is more like snowboarding in that turning does slow you down. I am more interested in proper heel to toe motion than I am in sliding. Sliding should only happen at extremely high speed tight corners... Where the freeboard is almost always sliding to a degree.

I guess what I am saying is with a road bike tire it would allow you to go much more sideways on turns, and the motion would be much closer to snowboarding, but with more traction. Snowboarding motion with street bike traction...

[jeffmccosker]

Throwing in an upvote for heel to toe concave. That was my first thought after about 2 minutes riding one.
I actually ordered some CrabGrab rails to put on the toe and heel to get the same effect. I'll report back after they arrive.
There is a guy in another thread that's milling some concave footbeds now. Hope it turns out well!

[TonyGDTLA]

the Leif skateboard is an electric version of the freeboard it would seem. Looks really fun. http://youtu.be/F52csYuVjMY