Petition: bring back extreme shaping 1.0

20 May 2015, 17:31 UTC

I recently updated the firmware on my OneWheel to the newest version, and I am ambivalent about the new extreme shaping. Yes, it's easier and smoother to ride, and the high-speed wobbles seem completely gone. However, the device as a whole seems floatier and more disconnected from my body's motions. When I stomped my front foot with extreme shaping 1.0, the board immediately gave me a ton of torque. With extreme shaping 2.0 it gradually speeds up.

To put it another way, 1.0 was like driving a manual transmission; 2.0 is an automatic.
1.0 felt like driving a vehicle; 2.0 feels like riding a board.
1.0 felt direct and responsive; 2.0 feels mediated and floaty.
1.0 was fun to ride; 2.0 is easy to ride.

The only unambiguous improvements to the 2.0 shaping are 1) the elimination of high-speed shimmies and 2) the gentle nose elevation at high speed to tell me I'm going too fast. I would love, love, LOVE to see a return of extreme shaping 1.0, with those two small improvements. At least give me the option -- call it Direct Drive, if you're looking for a name.

What do other riders think? Agree or disagree? For reference, extreme 1.0 came out with the original IOS app. Extreme 2.0 came with the update, the one that made "elevated" shaping available.

20 May 2015, 21:42 UTC

I never thought of it that way but I can see and understand your point of view. I usually commute to the gym and to lunch on this and tend to stay in the sidewalk where it's bumps galore and therefore I love the newer firmware for that reason alone.

1.0 would be overly sensitive to bumps and would often immediately result in pull backs. This was rather dangerous especially when you are cruising along. I'm taking the same route, same speed but without any pull back at all. Imo that is a much better user experience. I suppose we all use this for different reason and while I enjoy the speed aspect I rather have a smoother ride.

I am not oppose to bring an additional setting similar to what it was before if other users desire that mode but I advise against replacing it back to 1.0 altogether.

20 May 2015, 22:38 UTC

Yeah, I think most people will prefer 2.0 for every day cruising. I don't think it should be replaced with 1.0. But I want the option to turn 1.0 back on, as another shaping.

21 May 2015, 21:46 UTC

Surely, no harm in having the 1.0 back as an option? With the 2 minor improvements as zachmu suggested of course. Sounds fun!

26 May 2015, 08:17 UTC

I agree, would be good to have the option.

29 May 2015, 17:11 UTC

I got my board after 2.0 was released and never got to try 1.0 but after reading about it I would love to be able to use it or at least try it out!

19 June 2015, 20:34 UTC

Any chance of hearing from the tech team about the feasibility of re-enabling Extreme 1.0? I really miss it :(

20 June 2015, 12:10 UTC

I'm all for using having options to use whatever riding mode they want, so I agree with the petition. Let's have both if it's easy for the FM team to implement.

However (for those who never got to try 1.0), my unsolicited opinion is shaping 1.0 is inferior to shaping 2.0 in every way. My observations of shaping 1.0:

1.) The lack of pushback at top speed is dangerous and stressful. It's tough to just relax and cover ground because you always feel like you're balancing on a knife's edge (if you're truly trying to hit that upper speed limit). I have over 1000 miles on my OW, and for daily usage, I like not having to worry about going over the front.

2.) The top speed is 3mph slower.

3.) The range is 15-20% less.

4.) The riding dynamics don't feel as good - can't quantity why.

Again, my comments are merely an opinion for those who never got to try it. YMMV. I also don't take my board to the skatepark or do tricks. I use it to get to/from the beach, store, coffee shop, etc. Carving is really all I do with it.

20 June 2015, 17:16 UTC

For what it's worth, very similar experience to @lynnpreston. And would welcome having older version if it doesnt delay new stuff in the pipeline (I suspect there is much we have to look fwd to).

On 4, dynamics are just smoother. Hitting dips, cracks, twigs, etc, results in much more certain response from the board. And also feels like better responsiveness on carving, for example, accelerating out off the apex. Anyway, dynamics were the first thing I noticed with 2.0.

Also, mainly use Onewheel to get around a few miles at a time, carving on empty streets or navigating on sidewalks through busy intersections.

22 June 2015, 22:01 UTC

The dynamics on 2.0 are definitely more stable, very noticeable when dropping off a small lip in the pavement. But the price you pay for this stability is less responsiveness. As a result, 2.0 feels very mediated, like I am less directly in control of the board's motions.

I think the main trade-off is high-speed cruising versus low-speed maneuverability. 2.0 is definitely better for cruising, especially if you want to go fast. But 1.0 was much, much more responsive in the low end of the speed curve, both for acceleration and braking. The kind of fine-tune control I had with 1.0 made it a ton of fun to ride around on, but also more difficult (and probably more dangerous).

Ultimately, I would like to see a hybrid of 1.0's responsiveness in low-speed (say under 8 mph) combined with 2.0's safer, easier cruising when you're really going fast. I would call this new hybrid shaping "Direct Drive," which name I formally release to One Wheel to use as they see fit.

22 June 2015, 22:09 UTC

Also, one specific thing that 1.0 did much better than 2.0: going up very steep hills. I happen to live on such a hill, so I encounter this often. The fine-grained manual control of 1.0 put me in total control of the board's acceleration. The algorithm in 2.0 has a much harder time, and won't give me the necessary torque to accelerate up the hill until I'm balanced at the point of falling off the nose. It's very frustrating, and I've fallen off the front a couple times because I was trying to get more torque than the board was willing to give me.

23 June 2015, 04:17 UTC

I've only been riding less than a week so have not used 1.0.

I've been really impressed with the handling in 2.0 in almost all situations both on paved and off road situations.

The only thing I've had issues with is steeper slightly bumpy grass trails where it's like the board stalls out. This same grade paved is a breeze to get up. I've thought the issue has been too low torque as a limitation of the motor but now I'm thinking it has to do with 2.0 not giving enough juice right when I need it which forces me to lower the nose until it bottoms out and I'm done.

I don't think 1.0 is coming back probably for safety reasons but I'm sure they will continue to improve performance with each update.

Tonight I did use "elevated" on a very steep hill and compared it to extreme and it made it a lot easier to get up. Not sure if I'd use it if I didn't have to though to avoide having to stop and switch modes back to extreme.

23 June 2015, 10:01 UTC

I've had the same problem with the stall outs. It seems if you lean too much into it when going up hill it shuts off and you are instantly running down the road. I've had this happen several times to the point where I just don't bother trying to go fast up hill. In fact I've had the board for a month now, and the only time I've fallen off is when I push it to go faster up a hill and it shuts off. I am actually glad to hear that I'm not the only one experiencing this. There was one time when it stalled, I jumped off, and the corner of the board got me in the back of my ankle. Holy shpitz that hurt!!!! It left a bad bruise and altered how I walked for a few days. I hope that doesn't happen again!

23 June 2015, 11:32 UTC

They advertise the board to get up 20% incline which it exceeds significantly for me especially on pavement. I'm sure weight has a lot to do with it, I'm about 220 and I'm sure someone at 180 zips up hills faster and better. But I know exactly what you mean with the board just shutting off instead of giving juice which definitely has to do with firmware. And like you say, if you stumble off when this happens the board will often lurch forward. However, if you just touch down and it deactivates you can balance back up, but then again it doesn't give juice to start going forward. Normally at that point I either turn around or walk the rest of the way. Practice does help. I can make it up more hills now than before by doing things like going into it with more speed etc. Also got my ankle once but I'm used to skateboarding in which stuff like that can easily happen. Like

23 June 2015, 13:31 UTC

I have an idea as to why the board sometimes stalls out on 2.0.

#1 when you are riding slower, the nose is closer to the ground. This probably feels better when riding on flat or slight inclines.

#2 the faster you go, the more the nose rides higher until eventually you get pushback.

#3 when the board nose is close to touching down in the front, they disengage power.

All this works great for general riding, but works against you on steep inclines. Normally on steep incline you are going slower which means nose is farther down. You lean forward to speed up but nose goes so far down the board disengages.

This would explain why going into steep incline with speed allows you to keep going as long as you can keep the speed up. Your moving good, nose is up, which gives you room to lean forward and keep momentum.

This morning, I road around on elevate to experiment. First off, it takes some practice to for it to feel natural which is something you need to keep pace on a challenging hill. After getting the hang of it, I rode up a long unmanicured grass trail that I've only been able to get a quarter of the way up...even in elevated mode. With the nose up and going into it with a little speed, I was able to make it all the way up because I could lean forward and get the power I needed without nose going too far down and having the motor disengage. I didn't think I was going to ever get up this hill with this model, so this was exciting.

I then continued in elevate mode for some dirt mounds and found it also helped going through the dips. I wonder if the riders the have doing stunts at events are mostly riding in elevate.

24 June 2015, 18:19 UTC

So hills, I'm not the only one. I was moving up a hilled street slower than I wanted. I leaned forward with my normal I want to go faster faster lean and the board seemed to stall, dive, catch itself, accelerate hard and I barely stayed on it. A week later, different hill, similar grade, same situation. This time I did not stay on, tried to run it out, failed and got some good road rash. I've definitely gotten more cautious about my acceleration on hills now. I think you're right though @Franky in your explanation of what happens as it seemed to be what I experienced.

25 July 2015, 20:01 UTC

Firmware is currently a one-way irrevocable upgrade right? Crazy. I'm at 3029 but why would I ever upgrade to 3034 if I can't change it back? Especially since as far as I can tell there's no release notes about each firmware version.

Granted some versions might need to be blacklisted for safety reasons (bugs), but everything else should just be a like a ROM you download and flash on, like when you flash a Linksys router with OpenWRT.

26 July 2015, 03:35 UTC

@jpsimons no reason to upgrade until we are told why. So far they have said these are all the same. I'm still on 3000 which was shipped with my board.

26 July 2015, 03:48 UTC

All firmwares are not the same, there is obviously a reason they release updates. With each updateI have always noticed improvements. Sometimes you notice a lot more and sometime they are more subtle. With the latest update I have noticed my breaking is much stronger and you get a much better control of the board.

There are other reasons they would upgrade FW and we as the users would like to have our board up to date. New functionalities on the app might be added, like more ride modes or more live information about the board, etc.. Also, Future Motion has always been very focused on making the board safer and smoother so to me, not upgrading as soon as they release new FW is a not an option.

26 July 2015, 05:03 UTC

@Newheel I agree that updating firmware is generally a great thing.

However, I'm specifically responding to future motions comments within the last couple of days saying there isn't new firmware in response to a post where a riders board was acting strange after upgrading firmware.

I agree that the change in firmware numbers seems to infer that there has been changes, but if I'm understanding supports comments correctly, they are saying it is not new and any problems are not a result of firmware updates.

If I'm wrong on this and everyone thinks there is a big reason for me to update, I will. So far nobody has stated excitement over any release past 3000.

5 August 2015, 01:03 UTC

Advanced mode. Give us sliders to mess with the settings?

19 August 2016, 16:07 UTC

--reviving this old thread in the name of liberty.

mothership/do_you_copy?

15 September 2016, 21:43 UTC

I've gotten used the Extreme 2.0, but I still miss 1.0. It was just so responsive, like the board was an extension of my body. No pushback at any speed. I really wish it was a separate shaping I could select.

I think the ultimate reason that it was discontinued was legal liability due to the lack of pushback, which made it a lot easier to fall off at high speed. But I actually really resent the pushback I get at 12 mph, since it makes the 12-15 mph range a lot less fun to ride in. I'm an expert rider -- I can feel when the board is at max torque without pushback, which happens all the time going up hills. But FutureMotion doesn't trust me to ride without pushback.

They also don't seem to read these forums, sadly :(

15 September 2016, 22:08 UTC

@mrb - mothership? goodluck - we are more like "lost in space" over here lol
I am really surprised that there is not more action/involvement from FM on these forums and in general.
All they do is post a video now and again or ask for something. Their app sucks, they should just buy @SeeTheInvisible app(or hire him) and give it away. Has to be cheaper than developing it them selves at this point.
For a small company they seem a bit lethargic.
@lardnicus - I really like the idea of a configurable advanced mode.
wr420

16 September 2016, 16:49 UTC

@wr420 said in Petition: bring back extreme shaping 1.0:

@we are more like "lost in space" over here<

you are right. i suspect we are all just expendable drones to Mother. i didn't get anywhere in communicating with support so i went to Gilroy.

there are only a bunch of servers and robotic arms, mills, conveyor belts--all churning away. i saw thousands of Chinese shipping containers also, being smelted down, but felt no heat. none of the photos i took developed.

the advanced counter-intelligence and other systems in place cannot disguise the poor job done by text and voice recognition agents however. Mother seems intelligent, but cannot yet convincingly simulate human communication.

16 September 2016, 17:07 UTC

after reading this discussion I feel fortunate to have older OWs that have the older software