Pushback on the OW+ / Safety Limits / Top Speeds

24 July 2017, 00:15 UTC

@Corlux Speaking from direct experience, I'm pretty sure body weight, terrain, and rider aggressiveness contributes to the variability of nosedives. I love this board and hope OW sees your post and responds. This problem was present in V1 and in v2 boards. If this forum is any guide, there is lots of confusion and frustration around push-back and unexplained nosedives. (see @kbern post here for an 11 mph V1 nosedive that was recorded on camera https://archive.owforum.co.uk/topic/347/thrown-off-after-nosedive-with-no-pushback-warning-nose-dive-nose-dive )
I usually get push-back at 16 mph but routinely push through and usually cruise at 19" mph. (max for me was 20.6 mph) I pushed through past 16 mph all the time until I had my first and only nose dive, and now i'm pretty concerned about pushing past 16, which is a big bummer for me. Fear of nose-dive has changed the way I ride. :(
I had 108 miles on my board when I nosedived... so, perhaps, I was feeling a little too confident when I nose-dived at about 11 miles in hour with no push back or warning at all. During that ride, I noticed that the board was pushing back at lower speeds with a higher degree of back incline, so that should have been my clue that I was riding harder than usual. (I was riding with a friend who had a boosted board so I was riding in a more competitive fashion :) ) Anyway, my board nosedived and I had not even hit 16 mph.
I sent my logs to support thinking there must be a malfunction, then called support and spoke to Carly. The board did not shut off and there was no error code flashing. She found no error codes or malfunction in the log. She thinks I was just leaning on the front too hard, which is certainly possible, but given the unpredictability, this accident certainly gives me pause about riding past any pushback.
I wish a OW engineer would respond on this forum and let us know what the thinking is around push-back and these, fairly common nose dives with experienced riders. If the max speed of the OW is 19, I'm not sure why we get push-back at 16. The advertised speed is 19. Why does OW want their riders to get push back 16.5 mph on their way to the top speed of 19. Push back at 16 gives us no idea if the board is having trouble based on weight or terrain to avoid nose dive.
My 2 cents for OW engineering: I'd like to see OW get rid of push-back completely--at any speed. The energy it takes the OW to tilt the rider back would be better used to control out of the terrain issue, aggressive leaning, or speed situation that is driving close to OW limits. Put another way, OW should just warn the rider via the app, or with a buzzer/warning/noise built into the board if the rider is within approx 85 or 90% of OW limits. That would give the rider the space he/she needs to correct BEFORE nosedive.

24 July 2017, 15:53 UTC

@BrentWhitfield agreed that body weight, terrain, and rider aggressiveness contribute to the variability of nosedives. Other factors such as wind gusts and overbent knees can also play a role. I watched @kbern 's post and although you don't see it, you can hear the nosedive coming. You don't see it because he fights pushback really well and as a result the nose doesn't tilt back, but you can hear that sound from the motor, and that's the sound of the board telling you it's reached its max capacity (at which point you're essentially coasting). With more experience, it's that sound- and the accompanying feeling- that becomes the clue you're about to nosedive. I've been riding for 2 years and most of my painful nosedives happened during the first 6 months as I was becoming one with the board. I still nosedive on occasion, but now, most of the time I'm able to run it out. There's always a possibility there's a malfunction with the board, footpads, etc that triggers a nosedive, but most of the time it's 'rider error' and making that one small adjustment fixes it. As for why there's pushback, FM is limiting the top speed of board and pushback at a lower speed is the warning that you're approaching the limit. I like your idea of getting rid of pushback in favor of a rider warning, but there may be liability issues that are guiding FMs decisions, so they may prefer a more 'active braking' approach.

27 July 2017, 16:19 UTC

@groovyruvy said in Pushback on the OW+ / Safety Limits / Top Speeds:

@BrentWhitfield agreed that body weight, terrain, and rider aggressiveness contribute to the variability of nosedives. Other factors such as wind gusts and overbent knees can also play a role. I watched @kbern 's post and although you don't see it, you can hear the nosedive coming. You don't see it because he fights pushback really well and as a result the nose doesn't tilt back, but you can hear that sound from the motor, and that's the sound of the board telling you it's reached its max capacity (at which point you're essentially coasting). With more experience, it's that sound- and the accompanying feeling- that becomes the clue you're about to nosedive. I've been riding for 2 years and most of my painful nosedives happened during the first 6 months as I was becoming one with the board. I still nosedive on occasion, but now, most of the time I'm able to run it out. There's always a possibility there's a malfunction with the board, footpads, etc that triggers a nosedive, but most of the time it's 'rider error' and making that one small adjustment fixes it. As for why there's pushback, FM is limiting the top speed of board and pushback at a lower speed is the warning that you're approaching the limit. I like your idea of getting rid of pushback in favor of a rider warning, but there may be liability issues that are guiding FMs decisions, so they may prefer a more 'active braking' approach.

Thanks for the detailed feedback. I went back to the video footage and listened with headphones and I can hear what you are talking about. I have a couple of questions for you. You mentioned that now that you know better, it still happens, but you are able to run it out. Is that because you are are hearing the noise, then slowing down before nosedive, or are you just able to get your legs moving because of the warning sound? I'm was hoping I could hear the noise and correct in time before failure/nosedive. In other words, I am wondering if once you hear the noise, can you lean back and slow down to avoid nose dive?

28 July 2017, 11:27 UTC

@brentwhitfield said in Pushback on the OW+ / Safety Limits / Top Speeds:

In other words, I am wondering if once you hear the noise, can you lean back and slow down to avoid nose dive?

exactly! The instant you hear the motor whining, back off a little and you should be fine. Ofcourse you cannot put your entire weight on the front and then expect to be in time :)

28 July 2017, 23:19 UTC

@brentwhitfield ditto what @Polle said.

30 July 2017, 22:59 UTC

@polle said in Pushback on the OW+ / Safety Limits / Top Speeds:

@brentwhitfield said in Pushback on the OW+ / Safety Limits / Top Speeds:

In other words, I am wondering if once you hear the noise, can you lean back and slow down to avoid nose dive?

exactly! The instant you hear the motor whining, back off a little and you should be fine. Ofcourse you cannot put your entire weight on the front and then expect to be in time :)

Thanks @Polie @groovyruvy for your insightful comments. Regarding "just cruising" at greater than 15.5 MPH. Before I had my nose dive, I cruised all the time on smooth/flat conditions at 19.5-20.5 mph. (I weigh 162 lbs) Is it pretty safe to say that hitting nose dive inducing board "limits" is probably more likely when going uphill or incline rather than downhill or flat terrain? Put another way, is the board safer (less likely to nose dive) at > 15.5 mph speeds when on flat ground or downhill? I'm just trying to get a sense of what may trigger another "board limit" induced nose dive so I can avoid it. LOL Thanks, again.

31 July 2017, 19:55 UTC

@brentwhitfield
The Faster you go, or the steeper you are climbing, the board is using more of the capable energy, so there will be less energy available to keep you balanced

31 July 2017, 22:24 UTC

@Polle agreed. @BrentWhitfield I agree, you're least likely to nose dive while going downhill, and more likely to nose dive while going up an incline. Nose dives on flat ground can and do certainly occur, but I feel they're more easy to prevent / predict / recover from as compared to uphill riding. Uphill on the OW can be a tricky thing when you're first starting out. Even after I got past the 'introduction' stage, I continued to occasionally nose dive while riding uphill, and it surprised me- I had no idea it was coming and I wiped out. But after giving it some thought, it made sense- you move the OW by leaning forward / putting pressure on the front footpad, and when you do that while riding uphill, the road gets much closer to the nose of your board (as compared to riding on level ground) due to the incline (the steeper the grade, the more dicey it can get). So the trick is to find that sweet spot where you're able to generate enough forward momentum to make it up the hill, while at the same time not pushing too hard to the point that you jam the nose into the hill. With a little practice this becomes second nature. On really steep hills, I sometimes do switchbacks / ride zig-zag sideways up the hill- a good way to tackle steep grades and avoid nose dives.

15 August 2017, 18:13 UTC

I've been riding for almost 2 months and am coming up on 250 miles. Had a couple of wipe-outs earlier on, but looking back it was rider error and I had been wearing full pads so didn't really get hurt. I've been taking the board on commutes for about a month and a half. I ride in mission and have always respected the pushback which comes on around 16 mph and never pushing past it. For the past couple of weeks, I got really comfortable and stopped wearing the pads and only kept the helmet, boy was that a mistake. I was riding out to lunch yesterday, on the side walk, up a slight incline. I was accelerating to my normal speed, probably around 15-16 mph, and without warning the front dropped which sent me flying and I landed on my elbows. I was not wearing elbow pads/wrist guards so am left with nasty scrapes on my elbows and hands. I guess the lesson learned here is to always wear protective pads no matter how comfortable you get. But the disconcerting thing is I have been expecting the board to give pushback before nosedives, so I was not prepared for the nosedive at all.

15 August 2017, 19:19 UTC

@magrider you and I learned the same lesson - always wear pads! It's fate that the one time you're not wearing them you wipe out. I haven't had a nasty fall for over a year but I still pad up for every ride. I feel a lot more confident with the gear on because I'm not worried about injuring myself if I fall. About your nosedive, usually but not always you get pushback first, so when I ride I try to be mindful of the 'feel' (level) of the board because sometimes that pushback doesn't come when you might expect it.

2 September 2017, 05:45 UTC

@magrider Same lesson. As soon as I stoped wearing pads, I wiped out out of the blue and had 2 weeks of recovery with skin growing back over all the wounds.
I am back to wearing all the protection I had originally despite the fact, I am very comfortable ridding the board.

2 September 2017, 17:48 UTC

Yes. Exactly the same thing just happened to me in mission in my V2. No pushback, just quit. No more Mission mode for me.

3 September 2017, 16:13 UTC

surely with all the technology the ability to just drop it back on its tail is way better then what happen at 20 mph off the front nose dive board into traffic running around with no one on it. I have tons of road rash and bruised hip because of this method that was not really a smart plan.